California Schemin' w/ Brian Stokle

California Schemin' w/ Brian Stokle

Hang ten, VexHeads! Andy sits down this week with the creator of San Francisco's "Fog & Gold" Flag, Brian Stokle! Brian guides us through a little bit of SF's flag history, explains a little bit of his own history with flag designing (including why it's pretty easy to pick colors for the City by the Bay), and shows off his hope for a brighter future, rising from the ashes of the current flag. Plus, we dig into his 2022 City Flags Tournament on Twitter, and dig down into what makes the California flag such an enigma when it comes to design rules and tastes. Check out the show notes for all Brian's pics (+ the unedited transcript for this episode), and the links below to interract with Brian and the F&G Flag!

-Flags & Media-

Designer Brian Stokle holds an early version of his San Francisco "Fog and Gold" flag

    
"Pico" flag idea for California, 1846California flag redesign, all red, no textCalifornia flag redesign, no textCalifornia flag, current"Pico" flag drawn by Brian using the old sketch
Brian's early ideas for a San Francisco flag, number 1Brian's early ideas for a San Francisco flag, number 2Brian's early ideas for a San Francisco flag, number 3Brian's early ideas for a San Francisco flag, number 4Brian's early ideas for a San Francisco flag, number 5
San Francisco flag, 1900Fog and Gold flag, grey bottom (3rd design)Fog and Gold flag, gold bottom (2nd design)Fog and Gold flag, grey bottom, device shifted toward hoistSan Francisco flag since 1940
Flag of Madison, GeorgiaFlag of Dowagiac, MichiganFlag of Tulsa, OklahomaFlag of St. Louis, MissouriFlag of Madison, Wisconsin
Flag of Portland, OregonFlag of Chicago, IllinoisFlag of Aspen, ColoradoFlag of Washington, D.C.Flag of Lincoln, Nebraska

Episode Transcript

  

Andy:
Folks, we've got another one this week. You know what I'm talking about. You know him from his North American City Flags tournament in 2022. You know him from walking around town with a flag for shameless promotion, also a great way to find him in a crowd. And you know him as the creator of the San Francisco Fog and Gold flag. It's Brian Stokel! What's up, Brian?

Brian Stokle:
Hey, I'm having a good day because I'm on Flagged for Content.

Andy:
Exactly, right? That's what everyone says.

Brian Stokle:
Yeah, yeah. Seamless compliment.

Andy:
Exactly. I've heard you have been having quite a flaggy day though. You were sending me pictures on your walk home of exactly what I said in the intro walking around with a

Brian Stokle:
Yeah.

Andy:
flag.

Brian Stokle:
Well, I do own a handful of flags and I'm like, I can't my my building, I can't hang them off because it's made of old redwood and it's like it on one of my flags almost it fell into the street because it's so

Andy:
Right.

Brian Stokle:
brittle. And so

Andy:
Yeah.

Brian Stokle:
I'm like, okay, I'm going to use this six foot tall pole. That's a spinner, which I highly recommend. And I'm going to walk around with it. And you know, At first it was a lot of the time it was my the San Francisco flag. I made this one, but then I'm like, oh Thank you Flagged for Con- Thank you, er, flag for good... Flags for Good! I've got an earth flag, I've got a Ukrainian flag. I've got a Juneteenth flag and today it was Ukraine and I got a lot of toots on the cars and Even a guy gave me a big "Support Ukraine, fuck Russia."

Andy:
Nice. Yeah, I assume that that's that's definitely more. I have not walked around here in Tennessee with a Ukraine flag, but I assume

Brian Stokle:
Mm-hmm.

Andy:
you're much more likely to get that kind of positive

Brian Stokle:
Yes.

Andy:
bump there in San Francisco

Brian Stokle:
Yes,

Andy:
than I might be.

Brian Stokle:
I've actually wondered, because if I walk around all the different neighborhoods here, you will see Ukrainian flags in every

Andy:
Mm.

Brian Stokle:
neighborhood here. And I don't know if that's, I would assume there are some across the country, but I don't know if the density is the same.

Andy:
Yeah, not quite around here. Yeah, honestly, like like I live in like kind of a subdivision and there's I don't think any that I've seen in here other than the one that I have, which is also a flags for good.

Brian Stokle:
Right, right.

Andy:
And yeah, and nothing if not a company man. Although I got that before. Anyway, it doesn't matter. But yeah, no. A little bit downtown, there's like kind of one street that does flags on either side. It's got like a pedestrian

Brian Stokle:
Okay.

Andy:
walkway, but it's, you know, it's, it's set up and managed by the city for that. So yeah, it's usually like on Juneteenth, it'll have like the Pan-African flag.

Brian Stokle:
Okay.

Andy:
I think it's had the Ukrainian flag. It's had various pride flags, a little bit of everything, which for the South, I'm honestly happy to see any

Brian Stokle:
Right,

Andy:
and all of that. So

Brian Stokle:
right.

Andy:
yeah.

Brian Stokle:
I can tell you when I was excited that enough people purchased the flag behind me, although the colors are slightly off on that, we can go on that tangent

Andy:
We

Brian Stokle:
later.

Andy:
will, we will.

Brian Stokle:
But it was pleasantly surprising seeing them flying in a handful of places, but the Ukraine level is off the charts. It's... It's almost equal to the pride flag that you see all over San Francisco.

Andy:
Right,

Brian Stokle:
It's

Andy:
gotcha.

Brian Stokle:
a tied down a little bit, but it's almost got to pride level.

Andy:
Yeah, sure. That's honestly, I may actually wrap that question into kind of the beginning questions that I asked the guests

Brian Stokle:
Yeah.

Andy:
is like, hey, so where you're at, because we're getting more and more and different international guests.

Brian Stokle:
Right.

Andy:
And yeah, it's interesting to see. I know I was in France and Germany a year, just over a year ago, and there were Ukrainian flags everywhere in both, even in the smaller towns.

Brian Stokle:
Oh wow.

Andy:
And like even like we went to a pernay, which is like the capital, well, quote unquote, capital of champagne. It's it's got an avenue of champagne. It's anyway, folks, you should go. I'll probably put some

Brian Stokle:
Yeah.

Andy:
fancy French music under this part, but.

Brian Stokle:
Exactly.

Andy:
But yeah, no, it was everywhere in Germany. They even had an entire square that was in front of the Russian embassy. There was just Ukrainian flags everywhere.

Brian Stokle:
Oh, wow.

Andy:
I imagine that has not changed.

Brian Stokle:
Right. I mean, and frankly, it's a lot closer to home for them for from a war stance, you know, the threat and whatnot.

Andy:
Yeah, yeah, yeah, they're right next to Poland, which is right next to Ukraine and.

Brian Stokle:
Right? Right.

Andy:
Indeed. All right. Well, we got to move on a little bit. I have to tell the VEX heads what is on the flagpole today. Um, where did I have that in my notes? All right. Okay. So first we are going to actually have an over and underrated. I know I failed at doing that last week. You don't even know that yet. It'll come out tomorrow. I am going to talk to Brian about that flag attorney that I mentioned up top. We will course go over the long and wild history of San Francisco's flag and propose some alternatives, as you can see. And we'll chat a little bit about California's hopefully if we have time and we are going to end with a quiz. Again, I didn't last week, but I promise I will this time. Anyway, before we get to any of that, Brian, I like to ask my guests, what is your favorite flag?

Brian Stokle:
My favorite flag, it's a classic, but it's mired in a complicated history. It's the mashup known as the Union Jack.

Andy:
All right.

Brian Stokle:
My father's from England, or I'm sorry, Britain. He is from the north of England. So I've got a lot of family over there, been there a lot. And I think it's also a great example of, oh, wow, we mixed. three flags, or actually, yeah, three flags. You never, the Welsh flag's never been in there. And it came out strangely good, even though it's a weird design mashup. And then of course it's weighted by both positive and horrific colonial history stuff too, and Ireland and whatnot, so. So,

Andy:
Yeah, no, it's, it's definitely one of those that kind of like you said at the end there, it's definitely polarizing for one. I think I cannot even remember if it was on my show or if it was on the show that flag session and flags and 50 and Joey do together to Kiwis of Britain,

Brian Stokle:
Oh, right.

Andy:
a yank, I always get the order wrong. But they were talking about one of them was saying it was overrated. I don't remember if I've had anyone say it was underrated, but I think I have. And it's just

Brian Stokle:
Really?

Andy:
one that elicits a lot of responses. Yeah,

Brian Stokle:
Yeah,

Andy:
I think

Brian Stokle:
I wouldn't

Andy:
I've had somebody

Brian Stokle:
call

Andy:
say

Brian Stokle:
it

Andy:
it

Brian Stokle:
underrated.

Andy:
was underrated. It's what?

Brian Stokle:
What's that? I don't think it's underrated, but it's, it is mired in a very deep history. You know,

Andy:
Yeah.

Brian Stokle:
ironically now the English flag, when I used to go there as a kid in the seventies and eighties, you never saw the English flag. You

Andy:
Right.

Brian Stokle:
just saw some Union Jacks, but like, I remember my dad wearing a bucket hat at the beach that had the Union Jack on it.

Andy:
Mm.

Brian Stokle:
And now you see the English flag, which I think is pretty boring, even though I have English blood in me. But it's also even more weighted with that history and some bad weight to it as well.

Andy:
Yeah. Yeah. It's, uh, I talked about this on the one that for you and I is going to come out tomorrow for the listeners came out last week, but, uh,

Brian Stokle:
Right.

Andy:
talk to Nasha Gagnon from the, the SFV, the French flag society. And it's similar in France there. It's, uh, there it's seen as a, you know, keep France French kind of thing. Whereas I know the English, English flag, just the St. George is kind of seen as a keep England English thing. and everything that comes along with that. So.

Brian Stokle:
Right. Although I lived in France for three years and I had the luck to live there during 98 when the World Cup happened and they

Andy:
Oh,

Brian Stokle:
won it.

Andy:
yeah. Son y'all,

Brian Stokle:
And

Andy:
yeah.

Brian Stokle:
because they won the World Cup or because they were hosting the tournament and they were doing well, people were coming out waving the French flag. And

Andy:
Mm-hmm.

Brian Stokle:
even my socialist friends and left wing friends were like Yeah, Vibre France. And they would never have dared do that

Andy:
Right.

Brian Stokle:
before. Because of the same, what you just said about that your host from the French Vixological Association.

Andy:
Yeah, it's funny because like that also implies like that they have them on standby for that moment.

Brian Stokle:
Right. Hey, they

Andy:
It's

Brian Stokle:
have

Andy:
like you

Brian Stokle:
been

Andy:
didn't

Brian Stokle:
in

Andy:
get that

Brian Stokle:
four World Cups in the last 25 years.

Andy:
Yeah, yeah. No, yeah, that makes sense. All right, cool. So favorite. That's obviously the one we're going to have a quiz on later. Let's

Brian Stokle:
Right.

Andy:
get to the over and underrated and

Brian Stokle:
Okay.

Andy:
we can go in whatever order you like on those.

Brian Stokle:
Um, let's go. Let's go. Let's put the the the weight. Well, yeah, let's go for the good the friendly first underrated.

Andy:
Okay, cool. We'll

Brian Stokle:
So

Andy:
end on a bad note, in other words.

Brian Stokle:
yeah, yeah, yeah.

Andy:
Okay.

Brian Stokle:
I want that the initial friendly vibes initially.

Andy:
Mm-hmm,

Brian Stokle:
And

Andy:
mm-hmm.

Brian Stokle:
so you can hear where we're going with this for the overrated, it's

Andy:
Sure.

Brian Stokle:
gonna be controversial. Is

Andy:
Yeah.

Brian Stokle:
the underrated, it was a hard choice, but when I did the flags, the tournament last year, crazy enough, I did 80 flags. Probably about 60 of them are pretty good or excellent.

Andy:
Mm-hmm.

Brian Stokle:
But there were about two or three that I thought were fabulous and they failed in the tournament or didn't get, they maybe went one level and then fell off.

Andy:
Gotcha.

Brian Stokle:
And the one I thought was fabulous that didn't go anywhere and there was Aspen, Colorado.

Andy:
Okay.

Brian Stokle:
which

Andy:
I

Brian Stokle:
most

Andy:
did

Brian Stokle:
people

Andy:
look this

Brian Stokle:
I don't

Andy:
one

Brian Stokle:
think

Andy:
up.

Brian Stokle:
have seen.

Andy:
You don't think it's what?

Brian Stokle:
I don't think many people have seen it.

Andy:
Yeah, I don't I don't either. Like I would say I is definitely underrated. I don't even know if it's rated because

Brian Stokle:
Sorry.

Andy:
I don't know if enough people even know of it. I

Brian Stokle:
Right,

Andy:
did have

Brian Stokle:
right.

Andy:
to look it up. And I do like it. I do like it. I would say, again, definitely underrated. It should be at least rated. But

Brian Stokle:
Right, right.

Andy:
was

Brian Stokle:
Well,

Andy:
that

Brian Stokle:
I

Andy:
one

Brian Stokle:
can

Andy:
that

Brian Stokle:
tell

Andy:
like

Brian Stokle:
you.

Andy:
crashed out in the first round or something or.

Brian Stokle:
Yeah, it crashed out very quickly. And then the reason I like it is it's, and it breaks, you know, there's the five good flag principles. And even the NAVA has said they're not like hard and fast rules, but some people take them relatively seriously.

Andy:
Mm-hmm.

Brian Stokle:
And they're all good spirited. But this one, I love it because it's

Andy:
Thank you.

Brian Stokle:
pretty basic in its design, a white field for snow, a green Aspen leaf, and a snowflake. I believe it's in white on top of the Aspen leaf. And the interesting thing is in concept, that's pretty basic, but the edge of the leaf is very detailed

Andy:
Mm-hmm.

Brian Stokle:
as the snowflake. And so I love it because if you're far away, you get it. But if you're close, you notice some fascinating detail. And it proves the point that sometimes detail isn't always horrible.

Andy:
Okay, I like that. Yeah, that makes sense because, well, because of exactly what you said, you can tell it's a leaf at most any distance that you can even see the flag. But yeah, it is only close when you see, I did have to kind of like to your point, zoom in on the image on my phone earlier when I was looking

Brian Stokle:
Right.

Andy:
it up and I was like, that looks a little harder to draw

Brian Stokle:
Yes.

Andy:
up close than it did, you know, at first

Brian Stokle:
Yes.

Andy:
glance, but.

Brian Stokle:
I

Andy:
Alright.

Brian Stokle:
do have to say my second and third, like totally underrated, or Dowagec, Michigan, which is a very new flag, but it came in third place in the tournament.

Andy:
How are we spelling that?

Brian Stokle:
D-O-W-A-G-I-A-C.

Andy:
Okay, weirdly that's exactly how it was in my head.

Brian Stokle:
Oh wow!

Andy:
Well, you don't make the big bucks from a linguistics degree for no reason.

Brian Stokle:
Right. And then the other one which didn't do well in the tournament is Madison, Georgia.

Andy:
Madison, Georgia. I don't know if I know

Brian Stokle:
and

Andy:
Madison,

Brian Stokle:
that's pretty

Andy:
Georgia.

Brian Stokle:
new too, it's a very small town. I just love the way it looks, the Madison

Andy:
Oh,

Brian Stokle:
Jordan.

Andy:
so it's kind of similar to isn't that Madison, Wisconsin's?

Brian Stokle:
Uh, Madison,

Andy:
Reminiscent

Brian Stokle:
Wisconsin's

Andy:
anyway.

Brian Stokle:
is more, isn't it a, the, the diagonal with the little overhead of the state capital.

Andy:
Yeah, true. I guess

Brian Stokle:
It

Andy:
in

Brian Stokle:
is,

Andy:
my

Brian Stokle:
it

Andy:
head

Brian Stokle:
does

Andy:
it's

Brian Stokle:
have the

Andy:
reminiscent.

Brian Stokle:
diagonal, you're right.

Andy:
Yeah.

Brian Stokle:
This one has their town square on a diagonal. It's

Andy:
Oh,

Brian Stokle:
kind

Andy:
okay,

Brian Stokle:
of term,

Andy:
so that's

Brian Stokle:
I

Andy:
the...

Brian Stokle:
love maps. So it maybe that's where I got, you know, the soft spot for liking it.

Andy:
Right. Yeah, I definitely want to talk to you about maps because like, that's how I got into a lot of this stuff as well.

Brian Stokle:
Oh really?

Andy:
And we will get there. But

Brian Stokle:
Mm-hmm.

Andy:
we do have to do so that was your underrated. What is your overrated? And

Brian Stokle:
Okay.

Andy:
listeners, get ready.

Brian Stokle:
Yeah.

Andy:
Don't listen to this on the train. Don't listen to this on the train. Yeah.

Brian Stokle:
Everybody sit down.

Andy:
Yes.

Brian Stokle:
The my overrated flag is Chicago, Illinois.

Andy:
Okay, make your case.

Brian Stokle:
It's a solid flag. It's quite, it's very good. I think Tulsa's is better. And one thing that came and somebody, I think in some of our, whether it was, you know, in some, one of these social media is like, Ooh, those are strong

Andy:
Mm.

Brian Stokle:
words. And I'm like, I will stand by that. Um,

Andy:
Mm-hmm.

Brian Stokle:
is what happened is in designing my own flags and observing all these city flags. The one thing that's a really tough nut to get, other than like, hey, how do you make it simple enough, but symbolic enough, that's a universal challenge, but

Andy:
Mm.

Brian Stokle:
is the contrast.

Andy:
Mm.

Brian Stokle:
And so I re-looked at Chicago and I thought,

Andy:
Okay.

Brian Stokle:
that's not as contrasty, not that that has to be an absolute rule. I mean, there's a, this one's contrasty because they got the yellow wrong on my, they printed it wrong and I didn't bother. sending it back to the printer. So

Andy:
Yeah.

Brian Stokle:
it's more of a gold yellow, but it's actually contrasty with the gray in this case. But the gold yellow is actually, I forgot what the Herald, the academic Vex heads call it. It's like a metal on metal. You're not supposed to

Andy:
Oh,

Brian Stokle:
have that.

Andy:
yeah, I don't know some

Brian Stokle:
But.

Andy:
or on our John action

Brian Stokle:
Right, but anyway, for the Chicago flag, obviously the stars, they stand out, they're great. I think it's six pointed

Andy:
Yeah.

Brian Stokle:
or no, eight pointed.

Andy:
I thought six, but I could be wrong.

Brian Stokle:
Either way, they're the really spiky ones.

Andy:
next.

Brian Stokle:
But the blue is very light

Andy:
Mm.

Brian Stokle:
and that's fine. I think it's a great flag. It's still in the top 10, but. You know, DC might have something to say about that as does St. Louis, which just won a recent competition,

Andy:
Yeah,

Brian Stokle:
and a

Andy:
yes.

Brian Stokle:
handful of other flags.

Andy:
Flags that go hard, right?

Brian Stokle:
Right.

Andy:
Yeah,

Brian Stokle:
Right.

Andy:
yeah, I saw that one. I was voting for it. Actually, I think I voted Kazakhstan in the final, but

Brian Stokle:
Okay.

Andy:
I do love St. Louis. It was hard to put myself in the mindset of like, all right, I love these both, but which one like, quote unquote, goes harder?

Brian Stokle:
Exactly.

Andy:
And in my head, that was Kazakhstan. You know, hey, so whatever. No skin in that game anyway.

Brian Stokle:
Right. I

Andy:
But

Brian Stokle:
did

Andy:
yeah,

Brian Stokle:
love

Andy:
no, I-

Brian Stokle:
that tournaments mix of different source content of city flags,

Andy:
Mm.

Brian Stokle:
national flags, historic flags. And I can't remember what the fourth category was.

Andy:
I don't either, but whoever runs that account, if you're listening or watching, open invite. I do want to talk about that and just how you come up with it. But anyway, yeah, no, I can see your point on the Chicago flag. It's interesting there, like if you Google it, there are kind of like non-standard darker blue ones. And to me, the fact that they even like have those show up speaks

Brian Stokle:
Mm-hmm.

Andy:
to your point.

Brian Stokle:
Right.

Andy:
Like the fact that they bother darkening it so that you could potentially put it on something. I don't know. Yeah,

Brian Stokle:
Right.

Andy:
I do agree

Brian Stokle:
It's.

Andy:
that DC should have something to say about that. I do prefer theirs.

Brian Stokle:
Mm-hmm.

Andy:
Chicago's, I'll give them that it's remixable.

Brian Stokle:
Oh,

Andy:
They

Brian Stokle:
totally

Andy:
have that.

Brian Stokle:
remixable, very remixable.

Andy:
And part of that remixing though is kind of like usually changing that light blue stripe, which you're saying

Brian Stokle:
Right.

Andy:
is, you know, a little bit of a contrasty issue. Okay,

Brian Stokle:
But

Andy:
yeah, well.

Brian Stokle:
I will say I could be convinced otherwise that, and this is one thing we can talk about the tournament, is if it's important to the Chicago community or its history,

Andy:
Mm-hmm.

Brian Stokle:
maybe that it matters that it's a light blue. I don't know if it is. And then that's important.

Andy:
Yeah, the only thing that I knew about the blue was that it symbolizes like the, what, the waterways, like the river and the other river

Brian Stokle:
Right.

Andy:
or the bay?

Brian Stokle:
The

Andy:
Lake?

Brian Stokle:
Chicago River and then either it's Lake Michigan or is it, I forget

Andy:
I

Brian Stokle:
the

Andy:
think it's

Brian Stokle:
second

Andy:
like

Brian Stokle:
river, is it Displanes River? I'm probably butchering that. I should say that with a Chicago accent.

Andy:
dip then.

Brian Stokle:
But

Andy:
Oh yeah, I don't.

Brian Stokle:
the second accent, the second river that touches the Chicago.

Andy:
It's one of those. I feel like it's Lake Michigan, but I don't know. I will say that all this talk about it and us getting it wrong will probably prompt some comments. So, hey,

Brian Stokle:
Of

Andy:
engagement

Brian Stokle:
course.

Andy:
is good for the show. So, you know, hey, tell us how wrong we are.

Brian Stokle:
Yes.

Andy:
All right. So anyway, yeah. All right, so we got your over. Well, we got your favorite. We got your over and your under.

Brian Stokle:
Mm-hmm.

Andy:
And as you just alluded to that 2020. North American City Flags tournament. I wanted to talk a little bit about that

Brian Stokle:
Mm-hmm.

Andy:
I guess kind of I'll leave it up to you. But like how did you how did you start it? And how did you pick which flags would be in it would be my first

Brian Stokle:
Good

Andy:
question

Brian Stokle:
question. So I started it because I introduced backing up a little bit. I designed the flag behind here, the base design with gold fog and stenciled. This is a stencil essentially of an old 1900 flag

Andy:
Mm-hmm.

Brian Stokle:
of San Francisco. And it's gone some minor modifications back in just, or actually 2019 on Halloween. And I promoted it and it was more active in it for a while. But you know, like we were talking, I think before about some movements, they go into quiet mode for a while or

Andy:
Mm-hmm.

Brian Stokle:
disappear. And I thought, I don't wanna just promote it again, like just, you know, pictures on Instagram and, you know, I thought I wanna do something a little different. and promote it almost in a secondary way. And two sources got me going, gave me the aha moment. One was the Flag Institute account in the UK did it. And I think they did it four years ago too, was they did a World Cup of flags where they, in this particular year,

Andy:
Yeah.

Brian Stokle:
they did every team in this men's World Cup

Andy:
Right?

Brian Stokle:
had a flag. And

Andy:
Mm-hmm.

Brian Stokle:
they did, it wasn't exactly arranged like the World Cup tournament, but I believe there was, uh, it wasn't like a bracket the whole way. There was a, hey, take the top two for a while. So

Andy:
Oh, so

Brian Stokle:
I thought,

Andy:
there was like a group stage, like a legit,

Brian Stokle:
yeah,

Andy:
okay, cool.

Brian Stokle:
when the, and then what's cool there is it means you can have a, uh, like a secondary one that could actually gain momentum and possibly do what better. And, or if you have, as they call it, a group of death in the World Cup, you're not letting a great flag in this case get kicked out too early.

Andy:
Mm-hmm.

Brian Stokle:
So that happened, by the way, the finals was Brazil and Wales for that tournament. And then that was all on Twitter. Uh, and then at the same time, Nava was putting out its 300 plus flag. Um, uh, what do you call it? It's like a poll or you rate

Andy:
Yeah,

Brian Stokle:
the flag.

Andy:
dictionary size, I don't know. On my phone, I had to like you're on page two of three hundred and ninety. I was

Brian Stokle:
Exactly.

Andy:
like,

Brian Stokle:
Well,

Andy:
all

Brian Stokle:
that

Andy:
right,

Brian Stokle:
was

Andy:
let's do

Brian Stokle:
part

Andy:
this.

Brian Stokle:
of, I said, this is awesome to see all these

Andy:
Yeah.

Brian Stokle:
flags, even

Andy:
Yeah.

Brian Stokle:
though about half to two thirds were hideous. But if,

Andy:
Yes.

Brian Stokle:
but

Andy:
At

Brian Stokle:
if

Andy:
a certain

Brian Stokle:
a hundred

Andy:
point, the brain, like your brain almost is like, I don't know. I mean, I rated that one a two, but now I'm thinking, like, should I bring that down to a one? Because like, this

Brian Stokle:
Right,

Andy:
is the same shit as that

Brian Stokle:
right,

Andy:
one. And

Brian Stokle:
exactly.

Andy:
I don't know, like you start

Brian Stokle:
And

Andy:
to

Brian Stokle:
it

Andy:
second

Brian Stokle:
was a

Andy:
guess

Brian Stokle:
slog.

Andy:
all your low ones.

Brian Stokle:
And it was a slog too. I think even

Andy:
Yeah.

Brian Stokle:
if they were better flags, 310

Andy:
Mm.

Brian Stokle:
odd flags is hard to go through. I mean, I

Andy:
Yeah.

Brian Stokle:
think I had to go through three sittings for it.

Andy:
Oh, it was like five for me.

Brian Stokle:
So

Andy:
Yeah.

Brian Stokle:
I thought what better way to promote I said, wait, let's promote all the cities that have adopted flags. Cause that's what the NAVA survey was about is cities that had adopted new flags in the last. I couldn't tell if it was the last six years or 20 years, but

Andy:
forget

Brian Stokle:
I went

Andy:
what

Brian Stokle:
back to 2000 for

Andy:
it

Brian Stokle:
mine.

Andy:
was like 10 something

Brian Stokle:
Yeah.

Andy:
is 10 or five. Yeah.

Brian Stokle:
I went back to 2000, just to have a, because they, their last survey was

Andy:
is.

Brian Stokle:
an the cities of America, North America.

Andy:
Right, yeah.

Brian Stokle:
So I did some 2000, which is roughly the same. And then I said, okay, let's not do 300.

Andy:
Right.

Brian Stokle:
I thought, okay, maybe we'll do 32, like World Cup and use that format. And then I, cause I'm pretty open and chatty on Twitter and listen to people. I don't just yell at them.

Andy:
Yeah,

Brian Stokle:
I actually take,

Andy:
I've found that to be true.

Brian Stokle:
yeah. Is that they're like, Oh, what about this? Are you going to include this? I'm like, oh, that's a pretty good flag. It may not be my favorite, but it's solid. Like, okay, we'll go a little more. Well, and then the more you go, it's kind of like that. You can't just go two more. You have to like, the funnel

Andy:
Right.

Brian Stokle:
gets wider.

Andy:
Yeah.

Brian Stokle:
So it ended up being 80.

Andy:
I was gonna say, just real quick, I ended up being one of those people that was like, hey, what about this one

Brian Stokle:
Oh

Andy:
that

Brian Stokle:
really?

Andy:
you're talking about? I think I did it on the show's account. It could have been on my personal account, but

Brian Stokle:
Uh-huh.

Andy:
it was the flag. Listeners and flag session will laugh at this, but it was the flag of Slater, Iowa,

Brian Stokle:
Oh yeah!

Andy:
which I don't have a whole lot of love for, but I have talked about on this show so goddamn much that it is. Like it's the most anyone has ever talked probably more than flag session has at this

Brian Stokle:
Right,

Andy:
point

Brian Stokle:
whoa, that's strong words.

Andy:
I know, but I

Brian Stokle:
But

Andy:
sent

Brian Stokle:
I think

Andy:
it to

Brian Stokle:
you're

Andy:
you

Brian Stokle:
right.

Andy:
and I said, hey, it friggin it deserves to be in

Brian Stokle:
Yeah!

Andy:
here, whatever. And you know, it crashed down the first round, but still.

Brian Stokle:
Right. No, and I

Andy:
Secretly

Brian Stokle:
remember

Andy:
happy

Brian Stokle:
that.

Andy:
about

Brian Stokle:
I remember

Andy:
but.

Brian Stokle:
that. And I thought there were a handful of, that was one of probably about six, I'm not sure, where they weren't in the NAVA survey.

Andy:
Right.

Brian Stokle:
And I was happy that that and the weird Peoria County, Illinois one, which is kind

Andy:
Yeah.

Brian Stokle:
of mediocre, but it's in there.

Andy:
Yeah.

Brian Stokle:
And there were a few, and then somebody said, hey, what about Gettysburg, Pennsylvania? Which is a weird like Englishy looking one.

Andy:
Yeah, yeah, I remember seeing that

Brian Stokle:
And

Andy:
one.

Brian Stokle:
so I'm like, okay, hey, let's have a few other ones in there that were intro nobody knew were introduced or they were, you know, in 2002 or something.

Andy:
Mm hmm. Yeah, that's honestly part of why I put that one in there.

Brian Stokle:
Yeah. And it can say, hey, it was part of the tournament, even

Andy:
Yeah,

Brian Stokle:
if

Andy:
exactly.

Brian Stokle:
it, and then I, to wrap it up, I finished it up with, I did a similar format where, hey, there's round Robin at the beginning, and at the end it's a bracket where it's, you know, final death. The only thing, way I could do the full 80 is I created this elite group that didn't have to do the round Robin.

Andy:
Right.

Brian Stokle:
They got to skip ahead, but almost all of them ended up, none of them made it to the Elite Eight, or definitely not the,

Andy:
Really?

Brian Stokle:
I think only Portland got farther along or something. There was one that, and I believe it's because all the other ones had a longer time to have followings to do click the votes.

Andy:
That's sociologically interesting to be totally honest. Like,

Brian Stokle:
Yeah.

Andy:
yeah, I know what you mean. Like you kind of like have your candidate or have your guy or your gal or your person,

Brian Stokle:
Mm-hmm.

Andy:
like your thing that you follow and push. Yeah, I get that

Brian Stokle:
Yeah.

Andy:
on a certain point, on a certain level. That is interesting. So. Okay, so those didn't even make it. So which one did end up or what was the final four and then kind of which one ended up taking it?

Brian Stokle:
So the final four was, I'm gonna mash it up. So this is not in order of what

Andy:
Sure,

Brian Stokle:
six.

Andy:
yeah.

Brian Stokle:
So it was Duluth, Minnesota

Andy:
Yup, know that one.

Brian Stokle:
and Lincoln, Nebraska,

Andy:
Hmm?

Brian Stokle:
Columbia, South Carolina and Dowageck, Michigan.

Andy:
Okay.

Brian Stokle:
which incidentally, by the way, is near South Bend, Indiana, which also has a great city flag now.

Andy:
Yes, yeah, they do. And who ended up taking it?

Brian Stokle:
Lincoln, Nebraska.

Andy:
Lincoln, Nebraska. I do love, I've talked about it on this show before with Michael Green from Flags for Good. Who sells this flag, by the way?

Brian Stokle:
Yes.

Andy:
But yeah, no, I love, like, I've always loved like Art Deco, anything, you name

Brian Stokle:
I

Andy:
it.

Brian Stokle:
agree.

Andy:
So I'm honestly kind of a sucker for the Lincoln flag.

Brian Stokle:
Right.

Andy:
Do I have a couple of design notes? Yeah, I think

Brian Stokle:
Oh

Andy:
I

Brian Stokle:
yeah.

Andy:
talked about them on that show with Michael.

Brian Stokle:
Yeah.

Andy:
Maybe a couple of lines could be thicker, things like that. But overall, I do really love that flag. I could

Brian Stokle:
Right.

Andy:
see why it was.

Brian Stokle:
I also believe that even in this is one of the big lessons I learned in the tournament

Andy:
Mm-hmm.

Brian Stokle:
was even if I don't connect with it as much, I think I come similar to you. I think it's kind of cool. I do think and this got on the local news when they interviewed me for it is, oh, it's a very unique flag. And, you know, it's very unusual in the way those almost as narrow lines in there. radiating. I mean, obviously you can pick and say, Oh, well, there's this other one that does that. But the combo is actually relatively unique. Is that it does if a bunch of people are flying it in Lincoln, and they're all proud of it. That's what matters. You

Andy:
That

Brian Stokle:
know,

Andy:
is,

Brian Stokle:
it

Andy:
yeah.

Brian Stokle:
and I don't know if they're at the level that the when they when they propose the new versions and narrowed

Andy:
Yeah.

Brian Stokle:
to this one, if they're at that level yet. But I'm like, Hey, You know, it's a little bit like if there was a flag we all could agree is mediocre But if we went to that town and it was like, oh my god, they're really proud of their flag It's it's doing its job then

Andy:
So Slater, anyway,

Brian Stokle:
I'm sorry.

Andy:
no, just kidding. I had to get a Slater jab in somewhere. Yeah, no, I definitely agree. And it's the kind of stuff that I've said it before and plenty on this podcast, but I even argued with somebody in YouTube comments, which I know you should never do as a practice

Brian Stokle:
Right, right.

Andy:
just for your own mental health and everything. But... just like somebody was coming after the new Utah flag and saying like, well, it doesn't matter. Like flying a flag personally is not a mark of a good flag. And I was like, no, it's exactly the mark of a good flag. Like it's normal, like Nascha said last week, it's normal that in France, the town hall and this other place, they have the flag and all that. That's normal. But for citizens to fly, maybe not the national flag, but like the local flag especially, That's the mark of a good one. I see it all the

Brian Stokle:
Yeah.

Andy:
time over Tennessee, like it

Brian Stokle:
Yeah.

Andy:
everywhere. Like everything is branded either with a tri star or with the whole flag or a

Brian Stokle:
Right,

Andy:
stylized

Brian Stokle:
right. Right.

Andy:
version of the flag. It is everywhere and that's a mark of a good one. And we're starting

Brian Stokle:
Yeah,

Andy:
to see that in Utah, thankfully. But

Brian Stokle:
yeah, yeah.

Andy:
yeah, that's exciting time to be in it. Sorry.

Brian Stokle:
I will add that Columbia made it second place. And that, I'd seen it, I remember when it got adopted and I thought, and no disrespect to Lee Snellgrove and

Andy:
Oh.

Brian Stokle:
the folks that did the hard work. I need to, they have all the videos of the town hall discussions of it. So I wanna take some tips from what they did.

Andy:
Mm-hmm.

Brian Stokle:
I thought, it's a little different, but it seems a little awkward. However, the more I learned about it and the meaning, it actually, because it's actually supposed to be a wing also showing the rivers that are converging. And I actually even looked, I have no idea if this was part of the design intent where the three, the two rivers converge into one. there's a few islands and one of them looks almost exactly like the flag.

Andy:
Oh, really?

Brian Stokle:
Like the

Andy:
That kind

Brian Stokle:
islands

Andy:
of-

Brian Stokle:
where the colored bits are.

Andy:
curved on one bit

Brian Stokle:
Yeah,

Andy:
and

Brian Stokle:
yeah,

Andy:
flat on the other. Yeah.

Brian Stokle:
yeah.

Andy:
Huh. Yeah, I don't know. That might be that might be the kind of accident that the designer planned on taking to his grave and then you just outed

Brian Stokle:
bright.

Andy:
it. But like I had to tell people that there was an FFC on this flag because nobody saw it.

Brian Stokle:
Oh really?

Andy:
And and I was I like Easter eggs and shit like that. Like I'll always like Pretty much every episode, there's something different in the background here

Brian Stokle:
Uh huh.

Andy:
for eagle-eyed viewers, but yeah, I don't know. I love shit like that. So it could be, I'm not a graphic designer, but I know graphic designers like to mess around like that. So it

Brian Stokle:
Right,

Andy:
legit

Brian Stokle:
yeah.

Andy:
could be. Yeah. So that one got stuck. Yeah, that one's, that one has grown on me. At first, I thought it looked like a, like a blue whale almost, just

Brian Stokle:
Yeah.

Andy:
the coloring and the curvature.

Brian Stokle:
Mm-hmm.

Andy:
The star was kind of, you know, outside of any of that, but like, I don't know, it's grown on me. I don't know that I wouldn't like it better without the blue,

Brian Stokle:
Mm-hmm.

Andy:
that second darkest blue kind of curved

Brian Stokle:
Right.

Andy:
line, but...

Brian Stokle:
I also think like, like I think you said this and others, it's, it probably looks better flying and that, but that's pretty true for most flags.

Andy:
Yeah, that's what I find. That's why I love getting the interesting one. Like, I mean, Utah's looks great, but a lot of people's complaint was that it looked like a like a soulless, like, you know, to 2020s graphic design thing

Brian Stokle:
Oh, right.

Andy:
that would never look

Brian Stokle:
Right.

Andy:
good on a flag, but is okay as a logo. I've had it flying out here and I shouldn't even because it's a special one.

Brian Stokle:
Right.

Andy:
Nobody tell Eric, but I've had it flying out here for like four days at this point.

Brian Stokle:
Yeah.

Andy:
because it looks so fucking good on the pole.

Brian Stokle:
Oh wow.

Andy:
And yeah, I mean, it's,

Brian Stokle:
I also

Andy:
I guarantee,

Brian Stokle:
believe

Andy:
this

Brian Stokle:
that,

Andy:
one's probably similar.

Brian Stokle:
I also believe part of that is with new designs, whatever they are, even if you have a seal on a bed sheet garbage, even though that seal may look fabulous as a seal, that anything that's brand new, you, you're going to go, Oh, whoa, no, that doesn't represent it. I mean, I remember when Gap, the store created a new logo. It wasn't especially inspired, but everybody

Andy:
Yeah.

Brian Stokle:
crashed on it because they weren't used to it. That's an example where they're like, oh, whoa, that seems bad enough. They went back. But I can't think of any right now, but I'll bet there's something out there where they did accompany change the logo and everybody felt weird at first. But now we're all accepting it because we got used to it.

Andy:
I'm sure I can't think of any I do know the only like when I think about logos and like corporate ridiculousness I think about the Pepsi logo that they

Brian Stokle:
Oh

Andy:
just

Brian Stokle:
yeah.

Andy:
Rechanged back but the one that they like they spent

Brian Stokle:
Which they're back

Andy:
so

Brian Stokle:
to

Andy:
much

Brian Stokle:
the

Andy:
money

Brian Stokle:
old one?

Andy:
on The the one that was like yeah, they went back to it's it's a stylized version of the old one

Brian Stokle:
Got it.

Andy:
But the one that they had, you know for a decade or so was this ridiculous like somebody used math to say like, oh, it's like this part of the Milky Way and this part of it's like, no,

Brian Stokle:
Yeah.

Andy:
dude, it's it's just a logo. So but I feel like I mean, this may sound seem like I'm getting sidetracked, but I think it is kind of to the point. A lot of brands do do that like Burger King, they just went back to their

Brian Stokle:
Right.

Andy:
basically their old logo, again, a slightly stylized version. Pepsi is just on that. I mean Coca-Cola Classic is a classic for a reason because they almost never change it.

Brian Stokle:
Oh, I'll give you one.

Andy:
We've had a lot

Brian Stokle:
NASA.

Andy:
that have been reverted.

Brian Stokle:
NASA went, had its circle with the kind of rocket shooting at one

Andy:
Yes. Yeah.

Brian Stokle:
in the 60s. And then the one I grew up with, I think in the 70s and 80s was this worm kind, like very more modern looking for the era. But then

Andy:
Uh-huh.

Brian Stokle:
they jettisoned that in the 90s or 2000s and went back

Andy:
Yeah.

Brian Stokle:
to the old one.

Andy:
Yeah.

Brian Stokle:
And they're both good ones. And maybe when the new NASA came out, it maybe everybody's like, what are you doing? The old one's great. Or they thought the old one was old fashioned. We're now in the modern 1980s.

Andy:
Yeah, right. Yeah, they could be playing the like the new Coke game too, where it's like, we'll wait till they beg for us to change it back or whatever.

Brian Stokle:
Exactly.

Andy:
But anyway, yeah, no, I have a hard time believing that, you know, communities and their flags don't, you know, kind of fall victim to that exact same mentality a lot of the time.

Brian Stokle:
That's what I

Andy:
Um,

Brian Stokle:
found when I introduced new designs, is everybody's like, oh, that doesn't feel like San Francisco. And I thought, well, probably half of your response is you're just not familiar with it. The other half may be legitimate, like, ah, it just doesn't resonate with me. There

Andy:
Right.

Brian Stokle:
could be a better design.

Andy:
Right. I mean that you segue better than I could. I was just going to say

Brian Stokle:
I'm

Andy:
let's

Brian Stokle:
sorry.

Andy:
go ahead and get into the fog and gold flag because

Brian Stokle:
Yeah.

Andy:
yeah, everything that you just said and for the listeners. Yes. Like I said, up top, he has designed the fog and gold flag for San Francisco, which is a callback to an earlier design and a replacement for a tragedy, I would call it. But. I don't know, wherever you want to start with this, like, I guess an interesting point to start at would be, you've been interested in vexillology for a while, but what got you interested in the San Francisco flag and how cool it could be versus how

Brian Stokle:
Right.

Andy:
lame it is?

Brian Stokle:
There was some movement and there, as they call it in San Francisco, the, I don't think many people here will know about them. There's a local social media hero or celebrity called Burrito Justice. Um, that's his, his handle. And although I have met him, but I wouldn't out his real name. Um, He, I think him in a local like online journal called

Andy:
Mm-hmm.

Brian Stokle:
the Bold Italic were maybe, and then I think even they were looking at, hey, let's do a better San Francisco flag

Andy:
break.

Brian Stokle:
joke in about 2012 or 2013. So this is pre-Roman Mars speech.

Andy:
Okay, yeah.

Brian Stokle:
And he came, I think he and a few other people came up with,

Andy:
Okay.

Brian Stokle:
some ideas, like he created a pixelated version of the current flag, that's a joke. Another

Andy:
Uh, yeah.

Brian Stokle:
person made it look almost like a, if you think of like the metallic, what did they call them at the front of the car, like the Jaguar coming out of it, like a metallic example of a Phoenix. So they were

Andy:
Yeah.

Brian Stokle:
a little bit cheek, but then he even did a different one, Burrito Justice,

Andy:
Right?

Brian Stokle:
San Francisco in pixels as a map. and then the left half was grayer. None of them followed great flag design, but it was fun

Andy:
Well,

Brian Stokle:
and playful, and I followed

Andy:
I was gonna say

Brian Stokle:
along.

Andy:
it doesn't sound like they were trying that hard to.

Brian Stokle:
Correct, correct.

Andy:
Yeah.

Brian Stokle:
So that got me, you know, that was kind of like the germination phase. Then of course, Roman Morris did his thing and I don't think I saw it right away, but you know, I was like, oh wow, yeah,

Andy:
Same.

Brian Stokle:
that's, you know, it's year one basically, or year zero. And so I thought, hey, let's, let's, I want to try to see what might be better out there. And I said, it doesn't have to be a Phoenix. Maybe what's important to me. And so I said, what's symbolic to me is fog, hills, bridges, maybe the bay and the water and the harbor. And so I tinkered with a bunch of designs that I shared on Twitter. we can pop up a few in the post-production.

Andy:
Yeah, I was going to say, if you have any of those, send them to me

Brian Stokle:
Yeah,

Andy:
for listeners.

Brian Stokle:
yeah.

Andy:
They'll be in the notes and for viewers, they'll probably be on the screen.

Brian Stokle:
Yeah, and some of them I'm actually proud of. Some are like, oh, you're clearly doing a work in progress.

Andy:
bright. Yeah. Oh, trust me. I know how that goes.

Brian Stokle:
Yeah, exactly.

Andy:
Yeah.

Brian Stokle:
But that's part of the process, honestly. And the even with the good ones, none of them quite, at least in the putting them out on Twitter and social media, never quite people never get, oh, that looks cooler. That's nice. But never like, Oh, my God, that's fantastic. That should

Andy:
didn't

Brian Stokle:
be our flag.

Andy:
capture anyone's imagination as much as you were hoping for, yeah.

Brian Stokle:
Yeah.

Andy:
Right, okay.

Brian Stokle:
And what happened then was two things happened around the same time. So this is probably in early 2019. One was John Lumia put out a history piece on, I think it's called the original San Francisco was better and it was badass or something like that for the 1900 flag. And then second, and it had some really, it had a really high resolution image of the original 1900 flag. And I talked to Burrito Justice and he's like, hey, Brian, you should just do one with the Phoenix on it. You know, people know about the Phoenix, that'll be the bridge, you know, not

Andy:
Yeah?

Brian Stokle:
the Bay Bridge, but the link

Andy:
Uh...

Brian Stokle:
to the hat.

Andy:
yeah, kinda. Yeah.

Brian Stokle:
And so, I'm like, oh my God, I can trace this in Illustrator. And I traced that. And that's what you got here with, there's some very minor Easter egg tweaks. So I actually know if somebody's copied the old one or mine.

Andy:
Ah, gotcha.

Brian Stokle:
I can give away one that's the most obvious is the original point to it right here. The eye on the original one had the lid was a little lower and it looked like a mean Phoenix.

Andy:
Okay.

Brian Stokle:
And so I didn't want the Phoenix to look so mean. So I opened the eye a little.

Andy:
Yeah, you woke it up a little more. I mean, it is coming out of a fire. I'd be wide awake.

Brian Stokle:
Right. I better get a cord because my power is about to go.

Andy:
No worries. I just saw a spider over here and I had to not freak out about it for a minute. It wasn't even a big one.

Brian Stokle:
What happened?

Andy:
I said, no worries about having to get the cord. I just saw a spider over to my right and I had to not freak out about it as you were talking.

Brian Stokle:
Right.

Andy:
I'm not a huge fan of spiders. Now in our house, I will take them out so my fiance doesn't have to, but here in my room, like. Ha ha ha.

Brian Stokle:
Okay.

Andy:
I was just a little dude though. He's just gonna eat some bugs.

Brian Stokle:
We'd gotten down to 7%. So I think we're good.

Andy:
Oh wow, yeah! Are you good

Brian Stokle:
I'm ready.

Andy:
now? Okay.

Brian Stokle:
Yeah, I'm good.

Andy:
Yeah, so we'll just pick it right back up. What

Brian Stokle:
Yeah.

Andy:
was the last thing that we said?

Brian Stokle:
Oh, we were talking about the eye and that I basically caught, I

Andy:
Ah yeah!

Brian Stokle:
had the iris version.

Andy:
Yeah, I'm gonna say what I said again.

Brian Stokle:
OK.

Andy:
Just so we can like get back into it.

Brian Stokle:
flow.

Andy:
Yeah. Okay. So you opened the eye a little bit, which makes sense. He's

Brian Stokle:
Right.

Andy:
on fire. If I were coming out of the fire, I think I would

Brian Stokle:
Right,

Andy:
be wide awake as well.

Brian Stokle:
right, right.

Andy:
So yeah,

Brian Stokle:
And

Andy:
right on.

Brian Stokle:
I thought, hey, you know what, let's do it. I will meticulously trace this and hey, you know what, I'd done other flags before, like I said, that had gray fog in them or white fog and there's the gold rush and whatnot. And so I said, hey, what is... Let's keep this simple, because the old one had a ribbon that had the city motto in it,

Andy:
Mm-hmm.

Brian Stokle:
and this thing called a torse that looks like a towel that's been wrapped up in it.

Andy:
Oh, like somebody's getting ready to like whip you with a towel

Brian Stokle:
Yeah,

Andy:
kind of thing.

Brian Stokle:
yeah, yeah, it's a

Andy:
Okay.

Brian Stokle:
little more

Andy:
Yeah.

Brian Stokle:
stylish looking, but it's very coiled.

Andy:
Gotcha.

Brian Stokle:
And it's, I'm like, hey, why don't we just put a gray and a gold background on it, and keep the colors simple. on the bird and the flames.

Andy:
Yeah.

Brian Stokle:
And when I, you know, people saw me tinkering with it, there was some debate on does it go, what's on top and bottom in the background?

Andy:
Mm.

Brian Stokle:
And, but then I said, okay, pencils down, this is it. October 2019. And I was done. And then I just had to pick a time to say, okay, let's produce one and get. get some support to buy the flag and actually get it. Because I knew if I really wanted to get this to be adopted,

Andy:
Mm-hmm.

Brian Stokle:
you're never gonna get it adopted just by showing a glowing screen. You

Andy:
Right,

Brian Stokle:
need

Andy:
yep.

Brian Stokle:
a physical example to have, you have at least a fighting chance then.

Andy:
Yeah, absolutely. So yeah, I mean, several interesting things about that to me. One is you don't really almost ever see gray on a flag.

Brian Stokle:
Right.

Andy:
And I know

Brian Stokle:
Right.

Andy:
like when, I mean, last couple episodes, I've talked a bit about heraldry with the guests and in heraldry, you know, it is, they're silver, obviously, that goes along with

Brian Stokle:
Right.

Andy:
it, the argent, or however

Brian Stokle:
Right.

Andy:
they wanna pronounce it. But that usually in flag terms gets translated to white. So was there any kind of like, I don't know. I guess I'm wondering how you picked the colors that you did pick. Like what inspired you to pick like that gray, that yellow?

Brian Stokle:
All right. So I knew it needed, I wanted some shade of gray because I thought if I did white, and I see fog many times of the year out of my window,

Andy:
Sure. Yeah.

Brian Stokle:
it's not always gray. It can look like a white cloud coming over. It behaves a little differently, but it can be white. So it's not wrong to make it white. But I thought from a flag symbolism point of view, doing white. would be, oh, that's white, and you wouldn't think bog.

Andy:
Yeah,

Brian Stokle:
So that was

Andy:
it's

Brian Stokle:
why

Andy:
more.

Brian Stokle:
I went with gray.

Andy:
Yeah, I like it. It's more clear. It's more like, I guess it's more like straight to the point. Plus it's more unique. Like, as we just

Brian Stokle:
Right.

Andy:
said,

Brian Stokle:
And

Andy:
like

Brian Stokle:
I knew,

Andy:
I can't think of

Brian Stokle:
yeah,

Andy:
another one.

Brian Stokle:
that's that was my other thing. That was kind of a secondary thing was like, hey, nobody has a great great or very few. I think if you do a deep dive, there's a handful.

Andy:
Sure. Yeah.

Brian Stokle:
We're often a small part of a more complicated flag.

Andy:
Right, right.

Brian Stokle:
And so I but I have tinkered with the shades of gray, like if it is it darker, is it lighter? I haven't tinkered so much with what's the origin color, whether it's a blue gray or a red gray or whatever. It's normally, for Pantone people, it's cool gray.

Andy:
Mm-hmm.

Brian Stokle:
It's the varying shades. For the yellow or the gold, I just wanted something that felt goldy to me. Like, that's

Andy:
Yeah.

Brian Stokle:
why this one is a little too yellow.

Andy:
Right. Ha ha ha. Yeah.

Brian Stokle:
can pull it out. This is the original one here. This is the original color. Whoops, I'll go that way. This

Andy:
Okay,

Brian Stokle:
answers

Andy:
yeah.

Brian Stokle:
all. So that's a little more yellowy, rich gold.

Andy:
Right.

Brian Stokle:
But as you can see, the bird is very red and the flames are orange. And that has evolved. And the

Andy:
Yeah.

Brian Stokle:
idea originally was the flames are orangy, sort of like the Golden Gate Bridge or the birds kind of like, but you can't, if you do the actual Golden Gate Bridge

Andy:
Hmm.

Brian Stokle:
color, it looks a little too dusty.

Andy:
Okay.

Brian Stokle:
But then I'm like, this red, and I think even Ted K, when I got in the local newspaper said, yeah, it's not bad, but you know, the contrast with the bird and the red isn't so great. And I'm like, let's go for a very burnt red. And that's how the bird got to almost this brownish color.

Andy:
Gotcha.

Brian Stokle:
But that also jives with two things. One is that the local bus. system that muni

Andy:
Mm.

Brian Stokle:
often especially their more historic colors they have very dark brown jackets um and so it kind of and then there's a little bit of that vibe even though it's more black is the san francisco giants baseball team has a a bit of that black and orange look which a brown doesn't clash with

Andy:
Right, yeah. Interestingly enough, I don't know if I ever noticed it was brown. I thought of it as like a darker gray.

Brian Stokle:
Mm-hmm.

Andy:
Yeah, I don't know. But the thing is too, to what you've said, I have seen different versions of it, different versions that

Brian Stokle:
Yeah.

Andy:
you've come out with. I mean, all of them

Brian Stokle:
Right.

Andy:
are variants of yours. But well, like where are you at kind of now with it? Because like I know the one that the viewers can see behind you and that you've described for the listeners. is not like, well, or maybe it is. Well, you said you weren't in love with the gold on it, but like, where are you at right now with it? Have you, you've taken like a few polls

Brian Stokle:
Yeah.

Andy:
and things, if I remember.

Brian Stokle:
Yeah. I've done what? Say that again?

Andy:
If I remember, you've taken a few polls or at least kind of reached

Brian Stokle:
Oh,

Andy:
out

Brian Stokle:
right.

Andy:
to see like who

Brian Stokle:
Yeah,

Andy:
would

Brian Stokle:
yeah,

Andy:
order

Brian Stokle:
yeah.

Andy:
one were you to

Brian Stokle:
Right, right.

Andy:
make a run of this file or that.

Brian Stokle:
Right, so I'd say that there was the original one that came out where the bird was more of a red and the flames were definitely more orange.

Andy:
Mm.

Brian Stokle:
That got changed to similar to what you see here, to a brownish bird with a slightly redder orange flame about a year and a half ago. And that was mostly about contrast. to try to fulfill the contrast whilst keeping with the spirit of the colors.

Andy:
Right, right.

Brian Stokle:
But I think around the time I did the tournament and talking to a few people, both social media and directly, the idea came out was, oh, so I can't take full credit for this, is that, oh, you really should have the gold on top and the gray on bottom. And on top of that, they said, having it in the middle of the flag. makes it awkward where it hits the bird. And so,

Andy:
I won't lie, I kind of agree with them.

Brian Stokle:
yeah. And so, uh, you know, at first I'm like, I knew, cause way back when I was like, I'm like, Hey, gold can go on top. Greg can go on bottom, but I stuck with that for a while, but now it's been almost three years. So much like Tara's done, you can tinker and don't. Don't be, you're just trying to make it better. And so I thought, okay, let's, actually John Lumia was one of the ones that has always been whispering my ear,

Andy:
Mm.

Brian Stokle:
not physically, but now,

Andy:
Hehehehe.

Brian Stokle:
like, hey, come on, gold on top. It's a golden future. It's a, fog actually is not, it's in the air, but it's near the ground, not right on the ground. But

Andy:
That isn't

Brian Stokle:
other

Andy:
good.

Brian Stokle:
people say, No, but fogs up in the sky golds on the bottom is our foundation so you can spin it either way

Andy:
I was going

Brian Stokle:
and

Andy:
to say, yeah, you can justify almost anything if you just make that the design notes.

Brian Stokle:
Right, and so by moving the gold down to about, the original one had it quite low, not to the bottom of the flames, this other guy, I forgot his name, but he was on Reddit.

Andy:
Mm-hmm.

Brian Stokle:
And he actually wanted to move the whole bird and flame closer to the hoist, which I understand the idea behind it, but I didn't like the way it looked. And so I said, you know what, let's... Let's be open. You know, you might, I might've gone, Hey, why are you messing with my design? But I'm like, Hey, my goal

Andy:
Yeah.

Brian Stokle:
is I want a better city flag. Even if they don't pick this one. I'm fine. I just

Andy:
Right.

Brian Stokle:
want a better one and

Andy:
Yeah.

Brian Stokle:
a lot better one.

Andy:
That's a running theme. These last last few. Yeah.

Brian Stokle:
Yeah, so basically it's flipping the colors in the background. And then I made it so that it could go as high as possible in the flames for the, where the boundary of the grand gold was. So it's the middle lick of the flame, right, right there.

Andy:
Yup. Yup.

Brian Stokle:
And now there's, it's about one third gray in the background and, and I'm slowly introducing it. I know you were supportive of it and I'm waiting to get the first batch. a few two little small ones and two big ones. I think one of them is going to have your name on it.

Andy:
Cool. I was gonna say, yeah, I've been asking.

Brian Stokle:
Yeah, and that because of that flip in the background, it also means they interplay differently with

Andy:
Yes.

Brian Stokle:
the flame and the, and so I've been tinkering with the flame and the bird color, even though it won't be that dramatic, but it's just fine tuning it.

Andy:
Right, and it matters to you as the designer. Something that somebody else would not even notice

Brian Stokle:
Mm-hmm.

Andy:
is something that you're gonna probably spend like at least three hours on. Like, if you're anything like me and like most of the people I talk to that have graphic design as a passion or a hobby or what have you. But yeah, no, I am excited to get that one when I do get it. So

Brian Stokle:
And

Andy:
I wanted

Brian Stokle:
I did,

Andy:
to hear.

Brian Stokle:
I just wanted to mention, I did

Andy:
Yes.

Brian Stokle:
get somebody, it's really cool, bought a very large one, an eight by five one a few years ago, and they have a flagpole

Andy:
Hmm.

Brian Stokle:
on their building. It's all tatters now. And they said, oh, can we buy a new one? And then I said, oh, by the way, I'm gonna show you this new version.

Andy:
Yeah.

Brian Stokle:
I said, what do you think? And she was the first person who liked the old one that said the new one's better.

Andy:
Yeah,

Brian Stokle:
So,

Andy:
then there's your answer.

Brian Stokle:
yeah.

Andy:
And honestly, that's like, um, I mean, to a lot of like, uh, to any listeners who are graphic designers, you know, that's like the one, like I am not a graphic designer, I'll caveat it that way. Uh, I have done some flag designs, some of which are better than others, but

Brian Stokle:
Mm-hmm.

Andy:
I mean, yeah, be open to criticism like that. Um, take like collaborative notes like that, because if a lot of people are telling you, Hey, first off, we love your design, but. maybe

Brian Stokle:
Yeah.

Andy:
tweet this one thing, like

Brian Stokle:
Yeah. Yeah.

Andy:
be open to it. And honestly, if you're like me, you won't be open to it at first,

Brian Stokle:
Exactly.

Andy:
but you'll open up.

Brian Stokle:
Yeah.

Andy:
So,

Brian Stokle:
And

Andy:
no,

Brian Stokle:
for

Andy:
I think

Brian Stokle:
example,

Andy:
that's to your credit.

Brian Stokle:
I could get another design, even print it and go, oh, this is cool, but I still like the old one.

Andy:
Yeah.

Brian Stokle:
But

Andy:
Yeah.

Brian Stokle:
I did go through the process.

Andy:
Sure. Yeah. Plus like you can have, I mean, uh, flags for good is going to start producing these right here in

Brian Stokle:
Oh,

Andy:
a

Brian Stokle:
right.

Andy:
slightly like better version, basically, especially the embattled, uh, uh, side on the fly here in a better version, but I'm still going to hang onto that one because it's the prototype

Brian Stokle:
Yeah,

Andy:
and I love it.

Brian Stokle:
exactly,

Andy:
You know, like

Brian Stokle:
exactly.

Andy:
it's, it's cheap and it's kind of whatever, but I love it. So, um, I did want to hear so I don't know how much time we have to get into California's but I want to nail

Brian Stokle:
Okay,

Andy:
down

Brian Stokle:
I can,

Andy:
on San

Brian Stokle:
I can.

Andy:
Francisco's. What's that?

Brian Stokle:
Yeah, I'm all for California.

Andy:
Well, I was going to say, like, I wanted to nail down a little bit more in San Francisco is because what we haven't gone over and what I wanted to hear in your own words, and I want to have some fun graphics down here at the bottom is why does the San Francisco flag need to be replaced in your

Brian Stokle:
Okay.

Andy:
words?

Brian Stokle:
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Andy:
It's a saga.

Brian Stokle:
Yeah, yeah, because the one we have right now is a gold border on a white field with a, depending on which flag maker or online version you get, it's kind of a chickeny looking bird over a red flame that looks more like a crown. And then

Andy:
Mm-hmm.

Brian Stokle:
some of them have that tors, that wet towel wrap up. thing in it, but it's pretty minor. Um, and then it says in blue, almost like worse than Ariel font, San Francisco, which is they, they put, it was created in 1940 when we were about to have a world's fair. And they're like, well, nobody will know what the flag is. We better put the name on it. Um,

Andy:
all too common of a scenario, yeah.

Brian Stokle:
Yeah, I will admit by then the California flag was official and we're one of the few states where I would say the text actually can work ironically. So I know my hometown of Fresno says Fresno on the flag, the Oakland flag says Oakland on it. So there are a number of cities in California that probably said, hey, look, the state flag has it, we should do ours.

Andy:
I guess that's fair.

Brian Stokle:
Um, so, uh, it's pretty, I think the only good thing about it is the symbology of a Phoenix, because we had a ton of fires actually in the 1850s, where most of the city burned and we came back. And then after this 1900 flag was created, of course, as the famous great 1906 quake, where, uh, I believe almost a third of the city burned. Um, so that's great, even though it's a crappy design.

Andy:
Yeah.

Brian Stokle:
And the word stuck. I like the gold border. That's OK. But it also has

Andy:
I don't

Brian Stokle:
the motto.

Andy:
love that.

Brian Stokle:
I think it also has the motto and a ribbon on it. And it's just way too detailed. And.

Andy:
Yeah, I will say, and you probably know this by now, but when I Google San Francisco flag, yours is the fourth result that shows up.

Brian Stokle:
Yeah.

Andy:
Your

Brian Stokle:
Yep.

Andy:
early version with the red eagle

Brian Stokle:
Yeah.

Andy:
or the red phoenix rather.

Brian Stokle:
Yeah. Right.

Andy:
So hey, moving on up in the world.

Brian Stokle:
Right, my next goal is to try, I'm doing kind of the Milwaukee flag technique slightly. Just try to get it out there and it almost becomes, oh, well that's the de facto flag. Is my next effort is to try to get some of our cable cars, the historic cable cars, they have an American flag and the city flag. And

Andy:
Yeah.

Brian Stokle:
I know some people that work for that agency, no, no, no. guarantee, but say, hey, why don't you put the fog and gold flag up there instead? That's

Andy:
There you go.

Brian Stokle:
one. I'm trying to get to a famous hotel in town. They fly the American flag and other international flags and then say, hey. And that'll be a little bit harder, maybe. I mean, they both won't be for sure, but

Andy:
Yeah.

Brian Stokle:
that's the idea.

Andy:
Yeah, no, I love that as a, as a, as a strategy. I was going to say your next goal should be, uh, to move to number three. And then I would say probably number two. And then if you can, number one on the results, that'd be the

Brian Stokle:
Mm-hmm.

Andy:
path that I would, uh, just a suggestion, but

Brian Stokle:
Oh, right, right,

Andy:
no,

Brian Stokle:
right.

Andy:
but the, it's funny because like when you Google San Francisco flag, like I said, yours is the fourth, but even among the other ones, there's variation, which speaks to. what you were saying is like, there's not a whole lot of like, uh, uh, like it's not very well codified. It's like.

Brian Stokle:
Yeah, it's, whenever we codify a change, we'll have to be a lot more firm about it.

Andy:
Yeah.

Brian Stokle:
And apparently this happened in the, I was just reviewing this, the California flag, the notion of it was, I believe in 1910 or 11, but it didn't get codified with this exact look until 1935 or something. so that you can't create a different looking bear and

Andy:
Right.

Brian Stokle:
star and the weird grass it's walking on.

Andy:
Yeah, yeah, I am seeing that now. Yeah, the 1953 legislation to find the exact shades anyway.

Brian Stokle:
Right.

Andy:
There may have been an earlier. Oh, yeah. Until until 53, the image of the bear varied depending on the flag manufacturer. Yeah, I mean, that's the same thing with the Phoenix on yours. It's

Brian Stokle:
Yeah.

Andy:
just, you know, the wild west of vexillology over there.

Brian Stokle:
There's one that looks kind of cool, I think by, I'm not sure which flag company it was, but they don't exist in, I think Paramount was their name. They had the flames rather than just being one color, they were kind of almost interlaced and there were two shades of red and orange. And it looks kind of interesting, but it's very different in look.

Andy:
Yeah, for sure. I think I'm looking at the one. Yeah, no, the California flag, we don't have a ton of time to go into it, but

Brian Stokle:
Mm-hmm.

Andy:
enough anyway. Let's broad strokes it. What are your thoughts on the California flag? I know you said you don't mind the words so much on it, but outside of that.

Brian Stokle:
I think that it's another example, like kind of we were saying about the Union Jack where it's kind of complicated, but it works. Obviously that's more of a graphic flag. This one, there's so much detail in the bear and I don't know how much detail, I'm not looking at right now, but the grass has probably, and there's like four

Andy:
Yeah, the

Brian Stokle:
or

Andy:
grass

Brian Stokle:
five.

Andy:
has a few of those little like, you know, patches like I would draw if I were

Brian Stokle:
Yeah,

Andy:
to do it.

Brian Stokle:
and it's got like six colors, I think, which I personally don't think is verboten if you put it together well. So it defies the detail, but somehow just maybe it's because of the picture they picked for the bear and that this the combination I think works really well. And it because it's a bear, sadly, we killed them all off. So it's much like some flags where it's fraught with

Andy:
Yeah.

Brian Stokle:
the history

Andy:
Yeah.

Brian Stokle:
is that, but that being said, it's very identifiable and hey, look, it's a bear from a profile picture of a bear. And it looks pretty tough, but not mean.

Andy:
Yeah.

Brian Stokle:
And

Andy:
You're late.

Brian Stokle:
I think it's been argued that the repub saying California, we had a revolt like Texas did.

Andy:
Mm-hmm.

Brian Stokle:
Although Texas legitimately became its own country, even if for only a few years, we had a bunch of upstarts in Sonoma, California that

Andy:
Mm-hmm.

Brian Stokle:
said the bear flag revolt and said we're a new country. So in another ironic way, it really wasn't a country, but some have argued that saying California Republic is almost like a subconscious or a mind game of we're special and different and can do what we want.

Andy:
It does, I mean, like, it's a really good example of how flags just kind of like, are absorbed into lots of different kinds of media because like, I feel like the flag and the fact that it says California Republic, the fact that it has this strong bear on it, I feel like is reflected, like there are song lyrics that say California Republic. There are

Brian Stokle:
Mm-hmm.

Andy:
like, there are bears like wrapped on everything. Like it creeps into other forms of media

Brian Stokle:
Mm-hmm.

Andy:
and... to its credit, I think, in this case. It's one of the weirdest flags just based on like, I guess, just like on divided opinions of it. Because like you said, like it has the words, like it breaks the rules. It's not that easy to draw if you, you know, if you want to get it right and include the shading on the bear in the grass. Like it's, it breaks a few of the rules. And yet it's so iconic that you can't like, so like, uh, flags for good, like Michael. He

Brian Stokle:
Yeah, yeah.

Andy:
on the first time like he came on the show. I was before I was doing video but First time he was on he was talking about his california redesign and I do really like it. It's a Simplified version of this where the bear is a it's just an all red It's the same red as the the bar at the bottom It's simple even he said I like it, but I like the original better There's just something about this flag that that that warrants being included in lyrics and paintings. And like, I don't

Brian Stokle:
Right.

Andy:
know,

Brian Stokle:
You

Andy:
it's

Brian Stokle:
know

Andy:
got

Brian Stokle:
what

Andy:
to

Brian Stokle:
I'll

Andy:
draw.

Brian Stokle:
do? I will send you, I did a version of the California flag

Andy:
Mmm.

Brian Stokle:
without the words, but everything else is the same, right?

Andy:
Did you recenter

Brian Stokle:
And

Andy:
anything or?

Brian Stokle:
I made the bear slightly bigger, so

Andy:
Okay, gotcha.

Brian Stokle:
that, you know, because it's giving room for the text. And I'm like, oh. That, I mean, it's not bad, it's good. I mean, I'm obviously not really reinventing it fully, right? But it's, what do you call it?

Andy:
HOMAGE

Brian Stokle:
It lacks that, the weight of the, what do you call it? I'm gonna put it, send it to you on Discord so you can see it right away. It's

Andy:
Okay.

Brian Stokle:
not quite as exciting in some ways.

Andy:
The gravitas, the, I don't know what word we're going for here. It is, yeah. I mean, like exactly. It's really good, but

Brian Stokle:
Mm-hmm.

Andy:
it's not the same.

Brian Stokle:
Right.

Andy:
And that's like the, I think the California flag is like one of the most like enigmatic ones that I've talked about. And you know, Marilyn gets strong reactions as well.

Brian Stokle:
Oh yeah, yeah.

Andy:
I am a hater. There are a lot of lovers. There's not

Brian Stokle:
I

Andy:
too

Brian Stokle:
can't-

Andy:
many

Brian Stokle:
where's

Andy:
in between.

Brian Stokle:
Terra on that one?

Andy:
uh, Tara hates the influx of Maryland into Pennsylvania. The influx of, I think she likes the Maryland flag. I don't know. You can ask her.

Brian Stokle:
I want, if I had to pick a word to guess, it would be envy. Not

Andy:
Envy.

Brian Stokle:
so much

Andy:
Envy

Brian Stokle:
for the

Andy:
is probably

Brian Stokle:
design.

Andy:
the operative. Yeah, she

Brian Stokle:
It's

Andy:
will

Brian Stokle:
not

Andy:
probably.

Brian Stokle:
for the design. It's the, how it's everywhere.

Andy:
Yeah, I mean, check her Twitter, check the Keystone Twitter. It's like a lot of her tweets are like, hey, so Marilyn's flag is great. They even have this invasive species just like their flag is. We should have a good one that, you know, we get to spread far and wide.

Brian Stokle:
Right.

Andy:
They just, you know, lucked out on, or not lucked, but they got one, but.

Brian Stokle:
Well, Michael knows this, there is hope for a potential at least display of a alternate California flag. One of them, I don't wanna say too much cause it might not happen, but there are two big flag poles in San Francisco and I'm working with somebody. They had to work on some other project, but my goal is to have two massive flag poles, one with. a fog and gold flag on it, whatever is the current version at the time,

Andy:
Mm.

Brian Stokle:
and an alternate or maybe the regular California flag on it. So

Andy:
All

Brian Stokle:
for

Andy:
right.

Brian Stokle:
anybody out there trying to create an iconic similar new flag, send them over. They probably have to have a bear on it. But other than that.

Andy:
Yeah, there is a long history of bears and I'm sure I'll put them in the show notes and probably in the video

Brian Stokle:
But that

Andy:
but

Brian Stokle:
on a foot note that speaks to there's way too many flagpoles out there with zero flags on them.

Andy:
Oh, agreed.

Brian Stokle:
That's the two flagpoles I have in mind are they're like 80 feet tall.

Andy:
Woof.

Brian Stokle:
And these would be like 20 by 15 foot flags.

Andy:
Yeah, there you go. Yeah, I was just reading that the flag was even designed by Donald Kelly, which was based on a flag flown during the bear flag revolt. So yeah,

Brian Stokle:
Yep.

Andy:
that bear on the flag goes deep, y'all.

Brian Stokle:
Yeah, and it's officially called, at least per Wikipedia, the bear flag of California. It's

Andy:
It is,

Brian Stokle:
not.

Andy:
yeah. Bear flag even redirects here, if you will.

Brian Stokle:
Yeah.

Andy:
All

Brian Stokle:
Sadly,

Andy:
right, yeah,

Brian Stokle:
we

Andy:
I know

Brian Stokle:
killed

Andy:
that's

Brian Stokle:
all

Andy:
awesome.

Brian Stokle:
the green tree bears.

Andy:
Yeah. I'm sure we could talk at great lengths about the flag of California. But we have to move into the quiz section of this.

Brian Stokle:
Uh

Andy:
If I

Brian Stokle:
oh.

Andy:
could.

Brian Stokle:
Okay, I'm getting sweaty.

Andy:
bring up oh yeah yeah and it's on the your favorite flag the

Brian Stokle:
Yeah.

Andy:
flag of the united kingdom so

Brian Stokle:
Uh

Andy:
let's

Brian Stokle:
oh.

Andy:
let's get into the uh the intro music here which i

Brian Stokle:
I'll

Andy:
still

Brian Stokle:
call.

Andy:
haven't trimmed down

Brian Stokle:
Great.

Andy:
Ope, lemme do it live, not just to myself. Whatever.

Brian Stokle:
Ooh, echo-re-

Andy:
And then. There it is. Okay, cool.

Brian Stokle:
Nice.

Andy:
All right. I'll probably have to redo that in post, but we will figure it out, won't we, folks?

Brian Stokle:
Right, right.

Andy:
Anyway, I've got the quiz music ready to go.

Brian Stokle:
Oh nice.

Andy:
Are you ready to go?

Brian Stokle:
I'm ready.

Andy:
All right. So quiz on the UK flag. Question one, what

Brian Stokle:
Mm-hmm.

Andy:
four countries make up the United Kingdom?

Brian Stokle:
What four countries?

Andy:
Yes.

Brian Stokle:
England, Scotland, Wales, and Northern Ireland.

Andy:
That is correct. And you'll be happy to hear that I now have the music on repeat instead of just the one time. OK, so those are the four countries in the UK. What three countries are represented on the flag?

Brian Stokle:
England, Scotland, and Northern Ireland.

Andy:
Uh, that is correct. Question three, on a scale of one to ten, how messed up is that?

Brian Stokle:
That's about a nine out of 10 messed up.

Andy:
Out of nine.

Brian Stokle:
Yeah.

Andy:
Yeah, that's correct. No wrong answers on that one. All

Brian Stokle:
Yeah.

Andy:
right, 4A.

Brian Stokle:
Mm-hmm.

Andy:
Question 4A,

Brian Stokle:
Uh-oh.

Andy:
that's right, folks.

Brian Stokle:
This is where the tough ones begin.

Andy:
Yeah. Name the three saints that the crosses are named after.

Brian Stokle:
Oh crap, okay. George, Andrew, and oh. Please, iron mines.

Andy:
Oh come on.

Brian Stokle:
Oh, Patrick. No? Patrick?

Andy:
Yup. It'd be that one.

Brian Stokle:
Yeah. They come

Andy:
And,

Brian Stokle:
on with a subtle clue.

Andy:
uh, yeah. Uh, for B.

Brian Stokle:
Not this gross pink dragon.

Andy:
Yeah, right. For B, for a bonus point, name the Welsh Saint that would appear if they were represented.

Brian Stokle:
Oh crap. New Ellen?

Andy:
Really good guess, it's St. David. Good guess.

Brian Stokle:
Victor Jackson, same thing. At least I think to Welsh.

Andy:
Yeah. All right, let's see. Question 5A. What was the common name for the flag from 1707 to 1801 before the St. Patrick's Cross was added?

Brian Stokle:
The Union Flag. The Union Flag?

Andy:
I think that is an acceptable answer. The one I was going for was King's Colors.

Brian Stokle:
Okay,

Andy:
The common

Brian Stokle:
that's

Andy:
one, and

Brian Stokle:
different.

Andy:
if you, yeah, and if you're searching to buy this one online as I have before, search for King's Colors. All right, that was 5A. Question 5B, spell colors.

Brian Stokle:
D-O-L-O-R-S in

Andy:
Correct,

Brian Stokle:
America.

Andy:
Brits. All right, question six. Uh, on what episode did I cover this flag with friend of the show kick acid run?

Brian Stokle:
Q-Cassetron? Oh, wasn't that episode five?

Andy:
Mmm. I don't think so. I think it was three.

Brian Stokle:
Okay.

Andy:
It could have been five. I'll look that up later. All right. Question seven. What is 13 times 13?

Brian Stokle:
That, isn't that 169?

Andy:
Indeed it is the first one to get that.

Brian Stokle:
Although I know I'm not the first to get that.

Andy:
Uhhhh... You're the first that counts.

Brian Stokle:
Yeah.

Andy:
And question 8, when flown correctly, which cross is quote, above the other on the fly side?

Brian Stokle:
Oh, I believe the Patrick flag above. I

Andy:
The badger

Brian Stokle:
know

Andy:
flies which.

Brian Stokle:
there's the Irish one is above the Scottish flag, the

Andy:
All

Brian Stokle:
Andrew.

Andy:
right.

Brian Stokle:
No?

Andy:
Incorrect.

Brian Stokle:
Okay.

Andy:
It is I think in Tariff will probably put in the notes or somewhere, but there's some rhyme they use. I think it's like white

Brian Stokle:
Oh,

Andy:
on the

Brian Stokle:
great.

Andy:
I forget what it is, but the white goes on the top.

Brian Stokle:
Right.

Andy:
All right. So let me score that.

Brian Stokle:
Uh oh. Oh, that's the calculation music?

Andy:
Oh, well, that's just me pressing buttons on my keyboard and hoping that I didn't accidentally stop recording, which we didn't. So that's good.

Brian Stokle:
Oh good,

Andy:
All

Brian Stokle:
good,

Andy:
right.

Brian Stokle:
good, good.

Andy:
So this looks like a B plus plus, and that stands for Brian plus plus.

Brian Stokle:
Nice. By

Andy:
Good

Brian Stokle:
the way,

Andy:
job.

Brian Stokle:
have you seen, there is a version of the Union Jack flag where the St. Andrew's flag gets dominated

Andy:
Yeah.

Brian Stokle:
in the, and

Andy:
Wait,

Brian Stokle:
it's

Andy:
gets

Brian Stokle:
fascinating.

Andy:
dominated or dominates?

Brian Stokle:
It is the dominant color

Andy:
Yeah.

Brian Stokle:
or design and that the St. George's cross is there, but it's more

Andy:
Yeah.

Brian Stokle:
in the background.

Andy:
Yeah. Anytime an Andrew is dominant, I am there for it. And yeah, I do love that one. It's funny, like looking it up online, too, because it's there's so many little like footnotes that are like this one was flown in Scotland like once and then somebody got mad and then another time and the government complained. And then it's funny. Anyway, yeah, so that was pretty much. Well, not pretty much. That's our show for this week. But before we get out of here. It is time to do some plugs. So Brian, where can people find you? Find the fog and gold flag, follow you, maybe make some purchases if they want, anything like that.

Brian Stokle:
Right. Right. You can follow me on Twitter and Instagram at SF Fog Gold Flag. And you can find the shop and some very old blog posts about the flag at my website at SFFogGoldFlag.com. And you might just see me walking around San Francisco holding a six foot pole of the Fog and Gold Flag.

Andy:
Yeah, that's a nice bookend because I opened the show with that that little tidbit

Brian Stokle:
Right,

Andy:
as well.

Brian Stokle:
right.

Andy:
So yeah, absolutely. Yeah, go find him. Follow him there. He's a really fun follow. Go find us and follow us. I think the easiest point really is our link tree. So if you know how link trees work, ours is flagged for content with the F.O.R. spelled out. That pretty much has all of our links on it. But if you're not keen on that anywhere, there's an at sign we are at. flagged the number four content and on YouTube it's all spelled out but if you're watching I suspect you know that anyway um I was pretty much all I had I thought I had like one more oh yeah shit I was gonna close the show but

Brian Stokle:
Mm-hmm.

Andy:
I don't ever know how to do this do you have anything

Brian Stokle:
I don't

Andy:
that

Brian Stokle:
know.

Andy:
could maybe help

Brian Stokle:
Let me think, huh? Uh,

Andy:
like

Brian Stokle:
maybe a poem? Have you

Andy:
Yeah,

Brian Stokle:
had a poem?

Andy:
I'm a little ditty, what have you.

Brian Stokle:
You know, a little ditty, you know, like think of some like a ethereal music here, you know? Okay. Um, okay. Ready? Now it's time to say goodbye. Good bye. Sweet VexHeads. Close your eyes and I'll close mine. Billowing flag, oh so high. Flapping so beautiful, I don't know why. Goodbye, sweet flag. May you glow with pride and carry us together as our guide. Everywhere. Goodbye and thank you Ringo Starr and The Beatles for inspiration.

Andy:
Thank you them. Thank you to you. This has been an amazing episode. Thanks for listening. Thanks for watching. This episode has been Flagged for Content. See y'all next week.

Brian Stokle:
Thanks a lot.

Andy:
Cool. Dude, that was awesome.

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